* Please note that there is some swearing during this interview.
   Scroll down page to read interview transcript.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT  (edited for ease of reading) 

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Hi, I'm Ginny Koppenhol. I am a photographer and DJ from near Lancaster, and I wanted to combine my two creative passions in a portrait project, but also an interview series with local DJs from Lancaster and Morecambe to get a sense of what it's like right now for DJs, producers, event organizers, in the electronic music scene in particular, just to take a bit of a  kind of snapshot, no pun intended, of where things are at right now.

More venues than ever, especially smaller independent venues, are closing down, which is really worrying, because that's where a lot of people get their first gigs and make those first creative connections or learn,  about  the music scene, and I certainly did 12 years ago. I was really grateful for those smaller nights, smaller venues that were around in Lancaster and Morecambe at the time.

So I think using Lancaster and Morecambe as an example  of what DJs and producers are experiencing across all smaller cities and towns across the UK, is hopefully really helpful.  I started this project just over a year ago, about a year ago, with a first interview with Dan O'Donnell, D. O. D. is his DJ and producer name, and I've known Dan for about 12 years now.

I first met him 12 years ago when he booked me to play at one of his events called Lancaster Loves at the Sugar House in Lancaster.  I've  followed his career with interest  because I've seen how much he's grafted and he's reaping the rewards. 

He's had loads of chart success, commercial success with his tunes, and  stayed true to his electronic music passions. He's touring America or Australia and he's getting loads of well deserved success. So I thought I needed to get this interview out. So the apologies for me talking a lot  and taking photographs during the interview. There's a lot of camera clicks. The arrangements were made quickly as I had to just grab an hour with Dan when I could, because he's so busy. We just set the iPhone up and pressed record. So we didn't really have in mind that it would be a sort of podcast episode or anything like that. So it's a bit rough and ready, but I really wanted to share it because what he shares is just really interesting and invaluable for people starting out, especially as he gives loads of tips and insight into his own journey.  I won't give any more away, I just want you to have a listen. It's just fascinating stuff. And I started off by asking Dan how he got into his DJing and production... 

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I started out probably for the wrong reasons.

I think I was like 11 and one of my best mates at high school had gotten a pair of decks and he was like into hip hop music and stuff. And I just thought he was so cool. 

So I was begging my parents to get some decks and they agreed. I was very fortunate that they were able to do it.

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Why do you say the wrong reasons?  

The wrong reasons, because I got into it because it was cool.  But that's what you do when you're younger though, you follow trends but it quickly became more than a hobby. It was like a bit of an obsession really and I gradually started to get better and better equipment, and speakers, things like that.

I'd been getting into music because of my brother and he used to have the ministry sound Annual CDs so I used to steal them off him and play them. So I was into dance music, loads of different types of dance music; the more underground stuff like hard house, scouse house and all that, and my love for dance music started really early.  This was all around about about the age of 12 that this had happened and I was playing on vinyl at the time.  CDJs were around but they weren't really a proper thing yet . Yeah, I just got experimenting with using my parents old vinyl and putting them over the top of the intro of beats and stuff which I really liked to do. And then my first gig was was actually when I was 14. 

Back then people didn't really care how old you were when you were in a bar. I was working with my brother. My brother's an electrician and we're in a bar in Bury town centre . I've forgotten the name of it, but it definitely doesn't exist anymore.

The guy who owned the place said, "do you want to play tonight?' And I remember rocking up and I didn't have many vinyl cause it was so expensive. I was proper nervous, but I did it and from there I started doing the odd local gig here and there.

The first residency that I had, I was also a glass collector at the same place. So I was 15 or 16 and when it would get too busy, they'd ask me to then go and glass collect and just put a mix on, which was s*** for me ' cause I was DJing and then I had to go and glass collect.

But that's really how it started. And I was always more of a local DJ and I loved house music, but I was having to play music that I didn't really want to play but  doing it just because I was earning money from it. I just wanted to keep that up.

So then I went from Bury and I got a connection in Huddersfield, so I was playing at Revolution Bar in Huddersfield. And then I kept that up a little bit while I went to university and then I picked up some gigs in Lancaster. I was playing at Revs here, Sugar House, and  Toast.

Yeah, so I was entering a lot of DJ competitions up here. I remember Leon Wanless who ran the nights 'Doin' It After Dark'. I entered  a DJ competition with him. So just trying to do as much as I could just to get into the Lancaster music scene. 

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And what did you think of the scene at that time?

I thought it was quite good actually. I was obviously knee deep into going clubbing at the time.  All I wanted to do was go clubbing. Obviously it would have been nice to have a little bit more  going on in Lancaster, but Leon was probably the only guy that was actually really doing anything at the time.  It used to be the upstairs of Revs and some other places as well. 

 

And what year was that? 

2006, 2007.  

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And you stayed in Lancaster ?

I stayed in Lancaster, yeah. But I had started to run events with a  guy called Paddy at uni. And we were risking our own money and we were doing it because, we wanted to earn a bit of money from it.

But also, I was mainly doing it because I wanted the opportunity to be able to play with other bigger DJs. So I was risking my own money just for the opportunity to play with these guys. 

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I played at one of them, didn't I? 

Yes, you did. Yeah. The High Contrast one. 

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That continued after university and my wife, Lauren we were doing the Lancaster Loves events together after when my friends had left university. And again, we were doing all this really just so that I had the opportunity to play with these other guys and try and show them what I could do.

Looking back now, maybe I was a bit naive to think that would propel my career, but I was just doing anything I could. 

But now I know it's all down to music production. 

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Okay. So that would be one bit of advice?

Which is interesting because obviously my focus is about the local scene and how far I guess that can take people.

What do you think are the opportunities in a city this size? 

Just as a DJ? 

Yeah, I guess so. But yeah, if you think the production's relevant...

So  just as a DJ, obviously you're gonna be playing smaller kind of bars.

First you're gonna be doing it for no money. Like absolutely no money. 

And you do these things just to get the opportunity, and you never turn your nose up at anything. It's all experience and I get the vibe that that things are a lot different now and people are maybe now a little bit more expectant maybe. I don't know whether it's because we come from a time where social media didn't exist really, whereas now people are seeing all these videos and you can be this if you want to be this, but they don't know that you got to put the graft in for it. 

You don't just get these things given to you. You've got to put the graft in.  So I would say, do as much as you can. 

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And do you think a city this size offers those opportunities? Do you think are positives, or is it a challenge  getting those first gigs? 

It's probably a bit of a challenge because the doors are a little bit more closed.

But I guess that's relevant to any city, but there's not that much going on here. So you're gonna struggle a little bit more unless you put on your own nights. 

If you put on your own nights, you are the the holder of the key too and especially if you've got a good group of mates that can come down and support you. Or you take a big risk like what I did and you actually put your own money behind it and try and book these bigger acts, but it's not going to be easy at the start and it never is. 

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You're right about the bigger names, being brought to places like this. Obviously tours include the bigger places don't they typically, but how do you get those names here and provide those opportunities for people starting out to be linked to that and that experience?​

And you've already started to touch on the challenges, but is it all right if I start shooting  (some photos)  whilst we're talking? Yeah, of course. 

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You've already started to say about the challenges of the city this size. The obvious one is that there aren't as many venues or people putting on nights.

And  what other challenges are there, do you think?  

The challenges are; competition, and like I said about like doors being closed. But you've got to find a way to open them yourselves. For me, I felt like I had reached a point where something different needed to happen for me. And I entered a competition with with Mixmag.  You had to submit an online mix and the mix was, I think a  30 minute mix or 50 minutes.  I'm sure it is up somewhere online. You just literally just had to submit one mix and then if that was successful, you got through one round and then it just got whittled down and I ended up winning that competition. And that really, for me was like the catalyst to everything else bigger that happened from there. The prize was a residency in Ibiza, for the 'Mixmag holiday'. So it was a week long of gigs at  Ibiza Rocks  and places like that. Don't get me wrong, like the gigs weren't great. But it was just a cool thing to do. And off the back of that, I got a double page spread in Mixmag. I've always loved Mixmag. 

And this was back in the time where the physical Mixmag was  a huge thing.

Obviously now, who buys magazines? I'm sure some people do, but it's more about online content and stuff. And when that had happened, I thought ' I've cracked it! I've won this competition. I've got a double page spread like everything, everything's going to be good!'

And then nothing happened from there. And that was my first realization of just how tough the industry is. Cause I thought ' why am I not getting any phone calls?' 

I didn't have a website. I didn't have any, anything that people could contact me for or get in touch.

So I started reaching out to booking agencies.  I even got in touch with the agencies that I was booking artists for Lancaster Loves events  and they just weren't interested. And yeah, like I said, that was the kind of the first moment that I thought 'what does it take then?'

I ended up signing to an agency, Eddie Halliwell was signed to, called PFA at the time, Promoter Friendly Agency. My professional career really started from there. They gave me a lot of opportunities. I was playing with with Eddie a lot.

I was supporting him in DJ sets, but again it then got to a point where things had gotten to a certain level where ' How am I going to progress from here?' and then the next step was (making) music. I had studied music at college. I studied music at university, but I didn't learn anything.  All I was doing was just partying. That's literally all I was doing. I didn't learn anything. They don't teach how to make a successful. a successful record. They don't teach how to make dance music. It was like more like the science behind music technology. I don't need to know about that.  

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So how did you bridge that gap then? 

I started producing. I just thought ' yeah I had all these amazing opportunities. And I'd won this DJ mag thing. I've got this double page spread in Mix mag.' And I thought that things were quite visible and in reality, they just weren't.  I think I was just so young and I was expectant a little bit, going back to what I was just saying about the kids these days.  But I think I had these amazing opportunities and I was a bit disappointed that not more was happening.

So I took it upon myself to start producing.  EDM was  just starting to pop off and it made a record that like did all right back then. And that again was that kind of my second leg up in the industry. That's when I started working with Laidback Luke and soon after that went on tour with him across North America and it was great.

I was partying a lot as well. Maybe not taking things as serious as what I should have been doing. But I was still working hard, but like looking back now, I was probably caning it a bit too much. 

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Kind of part of the journey though, for many people?

I've got no regrets of doing that because I wouldn't be where I am now.

I feel like I've needed to go through the motions of partying, getting all that stuff out of my system because ultimately now it's not what I want. I feel very lucky that I'm in the position. that I am in now, but it's taken  12 years of hard  graft right from the bottom, literally right from the bottom.

But it makes everything so like sweet now. Selling shows out  all over the world and this is what I've worked for. But it only really feels like over the last six months, that it's really started to connect. 

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You keep connected to Lancaster. Is that really important for you?

Yeah, it is because I love Lancaster. I love living in Lancaster. I love the people. I love the people of Morecambe as well. A lot of my best friends they're all from Morecambe. Everyone's been with me for the journey from the start as well.

I feel like if it was anywhere else and you start to have global success, people tend to ... I'm just happy that I've got the circle of friends that I have, to surround myself with. 

And living in a place like Lancaster, like there's not too much going on. And that's what I like. I like to go on tour and I like to come back and to not  have that temptation of " there's this party to go to, or there's that party, or people doing this and that".

I quite like that. Not so much going on cause you have to be so focused with what you're doing. Even if I'm a little bit tired, I'm not making anything good in the studio. I need to be as sharp as possible in the studio because that's when I'm making my best stuff, when I'm feeling as creative as I can possibly be. 

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That's interesting, that actually when you come home, it's a bit like more soothing. .  

Yeah I  Just I love the area. I love that we're so close to the Lake District. We spend a lot of time in the lakes. Yeah. In the summer we go camping. That's just what we love to do. And that when you've got kids, that's what they love to do as well. They're not bothered about hopping on an aeroplane and going somewhere.

They just want to be outside and spending time with their mummy and daddy, don't they? 

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And what do you think of the scene at the minute in Lancaster? Have you got a sense of where it's at? 

It's great that Matt Thiss is doing events with Summer (Jenkins), bringing names to Lancaster.  After that, I'm not really too familiar  or up to date with what other people are doing.

But I'm sure people are just grinding their way, doing their own thing and putting on their own little events and stuff. Because that's what I was doing and  maybe other people didn't know about that back in the day. So I'm not fully aware of what's going on, but I understand that there are probably quite a few people that are trying to do their own little thing, but it's tough.

 

That's what I want to find out through this project. What are all those different levels, what is happening? Is it still there? What are the opportunities? What's the challenges? What support do people need? And have you got a sense of what support you would have benefited from in those early days ?

So when I started doing events, I did it at a time where a lot of my friends everyone was still at university. And then when you leave university or when university ends, everybody leaves. And then you've not quite got that  support group of your friends who are just going to come to your shows and pay £10 for a ticket.

And I hadn't really met any of my kind of local friends that I have now back then. Cause you know, we're talking a good 15 years ago now.  And  I think you can certainly benefit from having a good group of friends around you that just want to see you do well. And that I'm just happy for you and we'll come and support you and come to your events and post things for you, share things for you.

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Do you think on a wider level as well, like any financial support or I don't know, like arts organizations or business support or is there anything like that? Or do you think like the scene is very much rooted in DIY? It's a bit counterculture in some way. 

People don't always think to look for outside support, but I don't know. I never got any additional support. It was just me and Lauren risking our money,  putting events on and some events would be great and some events would lose a lot of money.

That's just the way it was. But it was getting a little bit disheartening when you'd put months of work and preparation into doing these events. And if you ended up losing thousands of pounds, and we didn't have the money to lose back then, it's it was always such a big risk.

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And was what was driving you? Was it to further your own career, obviously, like that's often what it is. 

Yeah and the need to make money as well. I was a local DJ and wasn't earning loads of money .

That I feel like it's important for people starting off to take on board. And this is why you shouldn't turn your nose up at gigs, because these gigs where you're getting 50 quid for a full night of DJing, but you've got the opportunity, and that's how you make your craft, earn your craft.

And then you get more opportunities, you might get a little bit more money and then there'll become a point where you'll have that time during the week then because you're gigging Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you'll have the time during the week to focus on things that can really propel your career like making music. And that's what I did. 

I was a local DJ. I was DJ and I was playing  s *** commercial music that I did not want to be playing. But I was doing it because it gave me the time in the week to be able to focus on doing it.  What was important for the next steps because I had done the events and there was a limit to that I'd had this success with the Mixmag thing.

There's a limit to that. I was touring I was somebody's warm up DJ. Music is the only thing that can really take you to heights you've you just could never even dream of. So I was gigging at the weekend and gave me time to focus on making music.  

You don't need a fancy studio like even a studio that we're in now,  it's not great but it does the job you know.

What music production is about is this; If you keep your head in a good place and you just try, the more music you make, the more creative you get, the better you get at it. And when I started music, I didn't know how to make music. I just did not know. Nobody taught me how to do anything. I learned everything myself. And yes, it's taken a long time, but maybe for me, I needed to go on this journey and I needed to experience all this stuff to get to where I'm now. ' Cause  there've been so many points where I've wanted to pack it all in.

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That's one of my, the questions. Have you fallen out of love with it at any point?  

Loads of times. Yeah. 

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What were the triggers for that? 

Yeah, financial stuff.  

Doubting yourself. 

Being involved with other people who I felt were holding me back. And I've never been one to stick around and allow that to happen. If I feel like something isn't right,  I've always made the decision quickly to move on to the next thing. And yes, you might upset people, but at the end of the day, it's your career. They don't give a f*** . It's your career.

And if you stick with something that you're not happy with that's just going to continue. So a big thing is when you know something's not right, you've got to really trust your gut with how far you think you can take it yourself.

And if you really confident in yourself as an artist and you know that deep down. Failure isn't an option, then you've got to continue and just keep going. 

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That is such good advice. 

The last time I felt like that  was probably a month before Leo was born. So that wasn't that long ago. That was March 2019. You'd probably be surprised to hear that, yeah. It was so recent. I thought ' I'm nearly ten years into my journey,  and the needle's not fully moving.' Even though I was still having success with records, I was still touring with people. I was getting these little pockets of success which is great, but it wasn't enough to be like, you've cracked it. It was never enough. That's actually what's always driven me. If I think about it, that's what's driven me. Cause you're just a warmup DJ or you're one of these DJs who will just just get added to on a line-up for a favour. And I didn't want that. I didn't always just want to be a favour. I wanted to be like headliner in my own right, or I just wanted, I wanted more success. 

Being with certain groups of, whether it be like management or agency or whoever sometimes you just gotta move on and that moving on can sometimes be the weight off your shoulders that you need to take things to a next level.

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And that is exactly what happened shortly after that last dip, you just pull yourself together and I started touring a lot in Asia. That was great, and things were starting to look up a little bit more.  Still my creative output was the same and I'm still making music, but I was very much making music for that music that would work over in Asia. But it wasn't connecting it over in Europe or it wasn't connected in the US anymore because the US was like going a lot housier.  The UK has always been housey, so touring a lot in there, but that was taking its toll. And yeah but financially it was a good move for me to do like touring in Asia a lot -  my biggest source of income. 

But I felt the wrath of COVID before anyone else because it was Asia that started that first closed down. So I was getting phone calls saying that, 'this gig's been cancelled, that gig's been cancelled', so I really started to feel it like right from the start. 

But COVID was the best thing that ever happened to me because it took me out of that cycle that I was in of just going out to Asia, touring, really playing music that I didn't want to play, but I was doing it because I was getting the bookings over there and I thought 'this is all right, I can'. But deep down it wasn't what I wanted to do. I was doing it because I was touring, I was playing these huge clubs over in Asia. 

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And each thing can bring you new bits of skills and knowledge and experience...

Yeah but deep down, it wasn't what I wanted to do. And COVID really made me realise that. And cause I couldn't leave the house, I thought 'I'm going to test the water out' and just making maybe a bit more housey kind of stuff. And the first record, that I made when I tried to do that was Still Sleepless. That was the first record that I made and I just needed the time just to assess and think you just need to do something different. So if COVID wouldn't have happened, I would have never made that record.

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So would you say that if you can, to carve out that time and space for yourself. If you've got that opportunity amidst everything else, have those times of reflection to  assess where you're at and how true to yourself you're being?

Yeah definitely stay true to yourself because there's been a lot of times in my career where I've done stuff  musically, gig wise, just because it was like, 'oh it's, it's just a release', so just to get some music out,  Or ' I'm playing a gig so I'll just accept it and I don't care where I am on the line up' and that is the right thing to do, you don't try and bully your way through like into a line up when you've not got anything to shout about.

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But it feels like what you're saying is that some critical points where you can make a decision actually, to go a certain way, it's getting that balance, isn't it? Like you said, putting the graft in first and then when you hit those points, just becoming conscious.  

One thing I always think is that 'in five years time, do I want to be playing this track?'

If the answer is 'no, then  I won't f***ing do it anymore. I want to make stuff that is timeless 

You know, I look back on records like Still Sleepless and So Much in Love. I honestly think these records, and I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I think these records will stand the test of time. There's just something about them that gives you a feeling. Don't get me wrong there are still records that I release that I listen now and I'm like, 'yeah, you know it could be better', but there's certain records that will that I've made that will stand the test of time.

That's what I aim for. I aim for records that in five, ten years time, you can listen to them. You think, 'God, that was a tune. That was a great tune'. And it transports you back to a time where you're like, like music gives you a feeling and memories, doesn't it?

And especially this year after the success of So Much In Love.  

I get messages every other day of people saying ' this is my song of 2023, the song of the summer' and all this. And it's mad to think that song that I've literally made in the basement of my house in Lancaster as got 15 in the official charts, and is now such a huge part of people's lives forever.

Memories and moments.

Yeah, music lives on forever. 

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I've been asking people about Manchester specifically and whether you feel a connection, and, is being part of the Manchester scene important? 

Yeah, so obviously I'm from Manchester originally, so when I was clubbing, that's where I was going clubbing. I was going clubbing at Warehouse Project, I was going clubbing at Sankeys . So yeah that, it was always a big thing for me.  When I got my first gig at Sankeys I was absolutely buzzing about it. And it was just the upstairs  in Spectrum, I think they used to call it. And I had to sell tickets for Kaluki. I had to sell 30 tickets to be able to play there. And that's just how it f***ing went. That's just how it went down, but I was doing everything I possibly could to get these opportunities  because there's somebody else that's going to take your place and somebody else that's willing to do it. 

I come from a time where social media wasn't the key to success really. And I understand things are completely different now. But the work ethic is still the same. And obviously you can use social media. If you have something that goes viral, you could use that to your advantage.

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Do you think socials are a hindrance overall ?

I think it's a hindrance because it takes up a lot of my time and I just want to make music. That is literally all I want to do. If I wasn't in the studio on that day when I made So Much In Love, I would have never made that record.  If I wasn't in the studio when I made Still Sleepless, I would have never made that record because you make what you make on the day. 

Social media is an important part of an artist's career now. There's no denying that.  But because I've come from both ends where I know it's important, but also I started without it. Days spent doing other stuff is not spent tweaking a record. What I'm doing today is maybe an opportunity missed out on making a record that could set the f***ing world alight. 

So Much in Love was absolutely one of those records that has completely changed my life It was part of a '30 tracks in 30 days' where like I'd make a track every single day. A lot of times just be like a little demo, not a finished record.

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That was a personal creative challenge?

Yeah a personal challenge. And it's a great way of just making as much as possible. And afterwards you just sit and select the best. I started So Much in Love on the 17th of January at 10.22am and by 4.29pm I had made the record, and it pretty much sounds the way it does.

I was just in the zone and I was in the studio and I was like making music every day.  Out of the 30 tracks, there was quite a few that got released, but the Set Me Free and So Much In Love came from that.

So if I hadn't have I've done this challenge, I wouldn't have made these records.

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Really interesting, it's that balance between doing the work consistently and being in that flow, and knowing when you've got those magic moments. But just keeping on grafting regardless.

Yeah, I'm doing another one right now, another 30 tracks, so last week I did 5 records, like this one  (Dan plays a track). Straight away it just gives you a certain feeling. And obviously it needs a little work but yeah, that is a magic moment.

The biggest thing is really that I want to get across to people who are just starting off in a career is that it's not f***ing easy. It is not easy. And I may make it look easy, but it is not.

This is 12 years in the making. A lot of ups and downs. The music industry is a s*** industry. It's not designed to be easy at all. And you've got to be really strong in your decisions, and you've got to really believe in yourself. It's only the strong survive in the industry.  And if you want it bad enough, you will get it.

Some people do get these huge opportunities and and the lives have changed like overnight, but it's not really, it's not really how it goes down.

Focus on the music. That's it. 

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Thank you so much. 

You're welcome .